Talk: Divination card

Divination cards should not have the Currency item category - Even if we consider them currency, they are a distinct enough grouping that the Divination cards category should be a subcategory of the currency one - there is no need to have them in both. --Qetuth-(talk) 02:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Really, the only reason they're in the Currency category now is because when I made most of the individual pages for the divination cards we didn't have an item box template for Divination Cards specifically, and they inherited the Currency category from the template. Once we get all the individual card pages converted to the new item box format, the Currency category should just go away. --Khepresh (talk) 02:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I realised that only after posting the above. --Qetuth-(talk) 05:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The Card category is now in the item module. The other card images can probably removed soon, as only the inner portion is needed now. I've updated all the card pages for the updated scheme, however I left the full card images in for the time being so the mini-icon works correctly for now.

I've alsoextracted the remaining artwork, but I need help identifying which cards they belong to. Posted that on reddit for now since more people are checking reddit then the wiki talk pages :P

See here: http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/3a5ksy/cb_need_help_identifying_the_card_artwork_for_the/

--OmegaK2 (talk)

Standard card description

I was thinking we should standardize the description on the individual card pages when we still have a manageable number of cards. The fact that cards can be exchanged for an item is already on the main Divination card page so it doesn't need to be mentioned on each individual card. We don't repeat "this map can be placed in a map device to open a specific area" on every map page either. I also don't think the stack size should be mentioned, as it is clear by looking at the item box. The only things that are important are the reward and its rarity (for linking purposes), the area where the card drops and supporter attribution. It could look something like this: User:Climmels/card.

What do you guys think? I'm willing to make the changes if everyone's okay with it. --Climmels aka SirProblematique (talk) 16:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Best way to standardize would be a template though. That also makes standarizing new sections easier --OmegaK2 (talk) 16:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

We don't need a template for this. I say go ahead Climmels, just lowercase "divination card". —Vini (t|c) 17:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Missed that. I'll get started on it. --Climmels aka SirProblematique (talk) 18:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we should follow a template still or at least some fixed guidelines. I have at the moment adjusted all the cards to be as alike as possible in wording I believe to be clean and simple. --Varivalge (talk) 14:07, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks good. —Vini (t|c) 21:35, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

One thing that I find somewhat unclear

Because I don't play the beta, have not seen any of the divination card mechanic. When reading the page about it, it's unclear to me whether you need to collect and trade a full set to get the referenced item or just to sell one card and the stack size is just like currency stack size? The first option looks more logical, but it's not clear from the text. --DarkUnknown (talk) 06:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Also unclear to a non beta player - if it is the former as above, is the stack size always the same as the trade-in size? --Qetuth-(talk) 14:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Move to make the table less cluttered

The table was fine at first when we didn't have individual pages to display the info for each card, but now it's looking a bit cluttered. I would like to move to an auto-populated table akin to the other item types that displays the card name, reward, and stack size. The rest of the information is better suited for display on the individual card pages. Shall I go ahead and make this change? —Vini (t|c) 17:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea. Iamacyborg (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Um, guys, you didn't make it "less cluttered" you made it less USEFUL. It needs to at least include drop locations. --Fambida (talk) 23:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Horrible change, before you had all the information oin one page, now you need to open a new tab for each card, this is just stupid and non-user-friendly change

Agreed, removing the drop locations is awful. --Radeor (talk) 23:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The purpose of that table is to list the cards and what they do. The drop locations for each card are described on their respective pages. —Vini (t|c) 01:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Why remove them when it's perfectly fine on one page?? it's REALLY helpful to be able to just ctrl+F what you need. PLEASE revert it and stop being a dictator who just decides what everyone wants. --Rokuta

Iamacyborg and I both think the previous table was unwieldy. That is not to say we get the final decision, but I'm not going to allow users to engage in an edit war here. The page will remain edit protected until there is more discussion about what to do with it. —Vini (t|c) 04:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The drop locations are a critical piece of information for these items - making people click on each individual card to see the drop locations seems really unintuitive to me. Clutter is when there is excessive and non-relevant information gets in the way of displaying and clearly communicating the relevant information people actually want to see. The drop locations of cards are definitely relevant and are one of the four key details anyone looking at this table would want to know: the name of the card, what it redeems for, how many you need, and where you can find it. A list of just names and redemption rewards is of little practical use on its own. The previous version of the table was certainly cluttered, but the current version has very little utility. --Khepresh (talk) 05:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I like it being less cluttered, but I think drop locations is a key piece of item the table needs. Item level, contributor, etc were not needed though. Would there be a way to have an extra column added as a parameter in the item table template? I think it would be a worthwhile change to the template - I can think of many pages which use that item table which would like a "notes" column or similar relevant to the page in question. Failing that the areas could be moved into the card page infoboxes, but with how huge the card graphic is I'm not sure how best that would be displayed. --Qetuth-(talk) 09:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

In this case locking the page that everyone else wants to revert is totally out of line. Revert it until you get your version functional. Put a link to your new version on the previously unanimously preferred non broken version until you get yours working. I understand what you are trying to do to de-duplicate stores of information, and that is very admirable, but you still have work to do get it where it needs to be to be a better version of the previous page, and edit locking it in the meantime is wrong. --Radeor (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, Qetuth. Radeor, I stand by my decision to edit lock the page. Superficially, the reason for the changes to the table were about reducing clutter. However, there is actually more to it than that. Maintainability is also a major concern. I'm going to unlock the page now. —Vini (t|c) 15:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I still support that decision, users should use the talk page instead of reverting edits with no explanation. Edit wars are pointless drama and it's easier to simply lock the page down and have a discussion about the changes that are being made. Just for the sake of maintainability, the new page is much better than the previous one. Iamacyborg (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Adding DropLocation to Divination Cards

Here is a sample implementation using the Module:Sandbox. A drop location field will be added for each divination card. I am noticing some other problems from the table on the page, doesn't seem like the any of the card show on hover. Ditto for the rewards, I think because they are formatted with c|unique to give them orange coloring rather than using il | One option is to make il's use the item colors rather than just yellow this might be a nice aesthetic change for the whole site, if it's possible to code that, but that is probably a conversation for the item's module talk page. --Radeor (talk) 22:46, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Pros / Cons, I don't see what the issues would be? Radeor (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I personally don't see the issue either besides the coding behind it (which doesn't seem to be that big of an issue). It adds needed information at a glance and allows us to check what other cards may drop in the same location, up coming locations, or a certain location where we wish to farm. Example, I'm currently farming Dock Merciless, I want to know what div cards drop here so I just check the Div Card page, Ctrl + F, and immediately know what can/cant drop. Otherwise, I would have to go through every single card to possibly find out nothing drops at Docks. This can be extremely frustrating and tedious. Pulse1 (talk) 22:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It looks okay to me, you should propose the changes on the Item Module page. With regards to the changes to the il template, the problem there would be that there's no item simply called "axe" or "life armour", and there'd have to be changes made to the template to handle that sort of logic. Iamacyborg (talk) 23:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The pros are that it keeps the table easy to maintain. As for the cons, it further overloads the already burgeoning item templating, and it still requires duplication of information. But seeing as how I don't have a better solution than this at the moment, it might have to suffice. Can we decide how we want to handle formatting of drop restrictions for the table? —Vini (t|c) 00:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Let me know if you guys need me to change anything / how you want me to do formatting, I have a version up in Sandbox and proof of concept I can deploy. For now I was just going to have drop locations be a big string, until someone tells me to do otherwise that's kind of ugly. One other TODO is learning how to use the dropLocations field inside the card page itself, so that it does not have to be defined in there twice (once in the header and once in the drop restrictions area). Right now when someone edits those pages that will have to change it in two locations, which sucks. Also do you have a preference dropRestrictions or dropLocations? it should be probably be made consistent. I don't mind a change to dropRestrictions if that is what is preferred. --Radeor (talk) 01:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

You could even just keep it simple and call the parameter "drop". I have looked over your code, and it looks good. If you want to proceed with the next step, you can. —Vini (t|c) 16:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I will change it to drop, retest and then deploy it and then start going through the pages and adding the drop parameter to them. Might take me a day or 2 to add the parameters to all the pages so some entry's in the table might be blank in the meantime. --Radeor (talk) 20:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I did the first 4 any thoughts on formatting before I do dozens (which i plan to this time :P) more? For some reason the first item in the list is using a star rather than a bullet point, any idea how to format that better? --Radeor (talk) 20:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It's showing an asterisk for the first item because that's how wikicode is parsed. You should just remove the bullets and separate each item in the list with an html break tag <br>. —Vini (t|c) 21:16, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Looking good. I find changing the same thing twice on one page is a lot easier than changing it on two different pages, so that's an improvement too. I will add to the note that locations should be added to the card pages not the table now. --Qetuth-(talk) 02:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Definitely an improvement, but is it possible to have the page of each card show the Drop of itself, without needing to have the data there twice? That is, as soon as you change it in the 'Drop =' field, it also updates it on the part of the page that's visible to the user. --AvocadoCake-(talk) 12:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It's possible, but not desirable. That information needs to be formatted differently for the table than it does for the page section itself. Specifically, the table needs to have an abbreviated form. The page section needs to be written in complete sentences. —Vini (t|c) 17:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Link/Hover for rewards

Is it possible to make it so that when you hover over the rewards section, to have it so you get a hovering tooltip for uniques/items?

This would be desirable but is technically difficult, as there is no page/link for say "Life armour" or "Level 21 corrupted skill gem". So, possible solutions I can think of:

• Add a link parameter which gives the page to be linked to, and simply try to come up with the most appropriate page to explain the reward. So a unique might link to the uniques page, but a currency reward might just link to the Currency page. Would make every reward a link, but we probably couldn't use il template for popups because not every page linked would have an infobox
• Add a link parameter with a boolean which says whether to make the reward a link or not, and only set it for say the uniques. This means some would be links, others wouldn't, but would probably give readers the information they most want. It also wouldn't show things like corrupted uniques.
• Create dummy item pages for things like "Life armour" to provide the popup. This seems like a bad solution to me, but it is a solution.

Someone who gets the il template a bit better can hopefully say how viable any of these solutions is. --Qetuth-(talk) 09:19, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I realised I was over-thinking the problem, and tested just adding popup to the infobox for The Brittle EmperorThe Brittle Emperor8Voll's Devotion
Corrupted"When Voll spared Malachai, accepting his aid in pursuit of Purity, the strongest faith was infected by Corruption and made brittle as glass."
- Victario, the People's Poet. It works fine on the card's own page, and it works fine on the table of divination cards. But it causes a script error in the popup for the brittle emperor card itself. --Qetuth-(talk) 09:29, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

This seems like a fairly adequate solution, however I'd like to change one aspect of it before you go on to add links to everything. Put the link inside of the color template, like so: {{c|unique|[[Voll's Devotion]]}} I will have to create new styles so that the link displays with the correct color, but this way is less verbose. —Vini (t|c) 17:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

If nobody minds, I would like to make links for all rewards that can be linked, so they would show up on the main page. By this I mean linking different currencies and base items. I don't think it would confuse anybody to link Exalted Orb to the main page. EDIT: Dit it for the easy ones, can undo all changes by request, if people feel it is unnecessary. I was also thinking about item's such as 'Surgeon's flask' and 'Ring of Bameth', perhaps there should be links both to the base and to the prefix/suffix, so people browsing the main page can easily get an overview what one or the other prefix/suffix stands for. --Varivalge (talk) 11:59, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Cards that don't specify reward item level go up to ilvl 82, not 80

I'm bad at the wiki markup or whatever, but it's a common misconception that the item level of a card reward is the same of the player level up to 80. It's actually 82. I changed the text at the top of the page, but I think it's worth citing this page I linked here as a reference.

Can someone confirm that? I'm still confused, since it's level 80 from GGG here https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1255817 vs. level 82 from Qarl here https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/39irzi/new_divination_cards/cs3pt8e. --Lord joshi (talk) 02:49, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

There's also this comment by Mark_GGG: http://gyazo.com/0926870b58a78051743cae7e88f36888 saying "80 is the correct maximum value. Qarl got the number wrong in his post." --Illviljan (talk) 11:13, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Wrong drop locations?

From the recent Q&A (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1409553):

The following suggests, that at least 2 of the cards haven't been enabled, yet they have a drop location stated here. Why is that? Datamined or wrong information?

Q: Are there any more divination cards in development? Half of the maps are lacking any card drops except for the The Gambler. There are "ghost" divination cards that not many people get to see because they are located only in Normal and Cruel difficulties, considering how fast players level up the exp penalty makes them very hard to obtain. Here is the list: Birth of the Three, Lantador's Lost Love, The One With All, The Scarred Meadow, The Wrath. Will these cards get its own place on maps?

A: We are working on many more divination cards. There will probably be 250 or more in the game when all is said and done. 12 new ones will be enabled next week, for example.

Two of the cards you mentioned aren't actually in the game at the moment - they were previewed but haven't yet been turned on!

The Wrath and The One With All do not drop in maps, but can drop in areas with at most 25% penalty. We took the penalty into account when balancing the drop rate of these items. The Scarred Meadow can drop in at least one map.

I was confused by this as well. I think Chris got some cards mixed up here, since all drop locations on the wiki are added by players who found them in-game. None are datamined because drop locations are server-side. --Climmels aka SirProblematique (talk) 22:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Map suffix in area list

It seems to me that with several categories of possible drop location (storyline area, base map, unique map, strongbox, specific boss, etc), not having the word map on the map links is unnecessarily obfuscating by making them look more like the other areas. Especially with maps that share an area name like Crematorium. Is there a reason to have those links piped? Can we re-add the map suffix? --Qetuth-(talk) 05:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree with it, especially in a light of upcoming drop restriction changes (like certain div cards only drop from unique monters and strongboxes...) – Freeeeez aka TheFrz – 01:42, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Default sort seems alphabetical, but isn't

Although at first glance the default sorting of cards seems alphabetical, it isn't. For example, Metalsmith's Gift comes before Mercenary. Is this deliberate? --Varivalge (talk) 11:08, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Unlikely, feel free to correct it. --Illviljan (talk) 11:16, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Probably someone didn't put them in the correct order. You can feel free to correct it. —Vini (t|c) 12:00, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Adding 'Divination Card' subsection to lists

So i was thinking that we could also add the 'Divination Card' section to lists. For example The Battle Born can be exchanged for a random unique axe. Perhaps we should advertise that also on the unique axes page? Thoughts? And a Happy New Year, exiles! --Varivalge (talk) 10:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, it sound like a nice idea to me. But there is one thing that came to my mind: When people are going to the unique axes page, do they wand to know what unique axes exist, so they may use them, or do they also want to know, how they can get them through divination cards? It may a bit too much information there, but i'm open for other thoughts too. --Lord joshi (talk) 11:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Item categories for Doedre, Lioneye, Shavronne... ?

Since we got cards for Doedre Item, Shavronne Item, Lioneye Item and more may come (Kaom Item is also easily possible) i was thinking if we should make item categories for those, such as the category 'Doedre Items' which will be added to Doedre's Damning, Doedre's Elixier, Doedre's Tenure and Doedre's Scorn and therefore indirectly create the page Category:Doedre_Items which we could then use as link for the Divination card's text of Doedre's Madness. --Lord joshi (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Script errors

This page is still getting script errors, some of the time or for some editors, which appear to be due to too long a template call. What can we do about this? Would removing the colours or links for non unique items help? Would removing divination cards from the item template and giving them their own template help? --Qetuth-(talk) 03:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

What exactly causes these script errors? Can we somehow find out the issue? — Freeeeez aka TheFrz – 00:02, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Lua, which the item template uses, has a 7 second limit per page for processing. That seems to be what it is hitting. Previewing on the edit page where you can view stats like lua processing time gives me varying results between 4.2s and 6.5s, so it's not surprising it sometimes goes over 7. With so many calls of the item template, making it more efficient might help, which is why I asked about removing div cards from item to simplify the template call. The only other solution would be to split the cards across multiple pages, or to hard code the info onto this page. --Qetuth-(talk) 03:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

We may have to do what we've done on Unique Item pages and split them up under a category structure, for example, cards that provide currency, cards that provide a corrupted item, etc. Iamacyborg (talk) 10:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Currently the page works most of the time. So I suggest we create those subpages, and put a note to check those if this page gives a script error. There are still advantages from a players perspective of having all the cards in one sortable table if we can. --Qetuth-(talk) 22:59, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I've created a basic set of sublists which divide all cards between them, and linked from the main page under the table, so it should be the obvious thing to click on if the table fails to appear. Ideally these lists would be generated automatically and not necessarily be a complete partition, but that's a project for another time. --Qetuth-(talk) 23:49, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Editing drop restrictions

Currently, the drop restriction is manually edited in two places:

1. Item template parameter: Drop=
2. Under the Drop restriction header.

Many seem to forget editing the drop parameter, leading to a lot of extra editing being done. I think we should drop the drop restriction header and use the item table template for displaying the drop restriction instead. Here's an example: Shard of Fate --Illviljan (talk) 12:01, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed there was a drop parameter in the header until a day or two ago when I stumbled upon such edits in the change log, adding the drop location at two different places on the same page is very unintuitive. I'm assuming the script suggestion you linked just pulls the drop location from the header parameter? If so it's essentially a change to where the location gets added by the user so I'd say it works fine. In general I think it's a bad idea to convolute these "easy" edits that seem to attract new and sporadic users to the wiki, such as replacing fairly comprehensible code with an smw query that users typically won't understand. twitticles (talk) 18:09, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The reason this information is in two separate places on the same page is because it requires different formatting. The data passed to Drop= is intended to populate the Drop Restrictions column in the table on the Divination Card article. The information below the Drop Restrictions heading on a card page is intended to display the card's drop restrictions, written with the proper grammatical structure for a section within an encyclopedic article. —Vini (t|c) 08:21, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

I think what is required is that information is displayed consistently and correctly over the entire wiki. If a card shows differently in divination card compared to the cards main page, which one should I trust? I've noticed that the sporadic users often edits via the specific header, which leads to them never noticing the Drop= parameter and understanding the original intention. --Illviljan (talk) 19:19, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

I recognize that this is a problem, but I'm not seeing a solution other than for more dedicated editors come in afterwards and correct it. —Vini (t|c) 21:06, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Cartographer's Delight

The map tier needs to be changed to tier 5. Can't seem to figure out how to do it myself but right now it's highly misleading since it's stating tier 15! Liamwpk (talk)

It should work correctly now. I edited and saved without changing anything, this forces the table template to update with the correct value from Cartographer's Delight. It would've updated eventually but that may take a while. --Illviljan (talk) 16:45, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Divination cards and Atlas of Worlds map changes

With the map rework in 2.4.0 alot of the map drop locations are possibly obsolete. Would it be best to wipe all these and start from scratch with new verified drops or do a case-by-case "best-guess" basis? Take a card like The LoverThe Lover2Jewellery
Item Level: 79"I wanted to give you three things. I've given you my eternal love. I've sung to you my most beautiful song. I'd have given you the moon last, but it couldn't be found. I hope you'll accept this instead." which is lore linked to Merveil-type bosses. It now drops in Underground River (Merveil first phase) but I would presume it no longer drops in Graveyard or Necropolis as Merveil has vacated those areas. If anyone has solid information that none of the pre-2.4.0 drop locations were removed that'd be super, but I've only seen guesstimates and conjecture which I reckon a case-by-case approach would be equally full of. I'm fairly sure I've had several Lover drops prior to my first U.River run, which just makes me confused as Merveil doesn't appear prior (haven't run any Maelströms). Considering alot of other "sources" of information get their into from the wiki, the chance of errors begetting errors seems very high no matter the approach. twitticles (talk) 16:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be to copy the old drops over to the old map version (same name with (pre 2.4) appended), and start again. Check version history if someone updated things already or not. While we are at it, adding a source (like an image reference or video) with the ref tags would be pretty helpful too or add {{citation needed}} --OmegaK2 (t|c) 17:42, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

The full card list and the lua error

The complete card list is usually not working, so the reader gets links to the five sublists. How about including the results from the five lists into the main page instead of linking them? To my understanding the main query fails because it is so huge. Including five smaller queries from their pages or maybe even using five queries in the article itself should work, right? --aRTyficial (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

3.0.0 changes implementation

Hiya, I've once again stumbled into the black hole that is the editing of the divcard section. My main questions are a) wouldn't it look better, if the reward was called something better than 'effect', b) shouldn't the reward section be the main focus and the 2nd column as it was before, and c) is the reason all the 'The' cards are following the 'T' sorting rule because that's the way the divcard stash tab does it? All the best and how the f am I still no 13 in the leaderboard?? -- Varivalge (t|c) 08:21, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The table is currently generated through a query halfway generated through card data being imported by 3rd party tools and halfway editor effort adding missing information. I don't know who programmed the query and if the sorting is intended to be done this way, you might be able to get yourself an ear or two over here: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Path_of_Exile_Wiki_talk:To-do_list --Shmaobro (talk) 17:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

a) That particular column is used of various things across different item classes (such as quest items, currency, etc), if it was changed to reward it would no longer make sense when you have a list of mixed type items.

b) Again, this affects all item tables, but I think additional drop restrictions should probably be moved to the end of the table. I'll go ahead and do this.

c) It just sorts by the name right now without special care for "The" and "A". If this is how it done in game anyway, I don't see a need to change this.

We don't have a whole lot of editors and new ones even less so, so that's probably how --OmegaK2 (t|c) 20:57, 10 August 2017 (UTC)